tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8212356.post111870828558572288..comments2023-11-19T00:42:48.156-08:00Comments on balancing life: Affirmative action: Take 1, 2, 3Sunilhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07776658071546232685noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8212356.post-1120837670376088192005-07-08T08:47:00.000-07:002005-07-08T08:47:00.000-07:00Hmm..the famous argument is reservations will lead...Hmm..the famous argument is reservations will lead to empowerment. The question is do our politicians really want to empower downtrodden and marginalised. Can anyone ever imagine Laloo Prasad yadav or Ram vilas paswan taking an objective look at what really needs to be done to educate and empower Dalits except resorting to cheap populist gimmicks ?<BR/><BR/>I also do not agree to the use of the word affirmative action for reservations. Reservations are forced and not based on consensus whereas affirmative action does have some incentive linked to implementing the suggestions..<BR/><BR/>Empowerment is a complex thing, deals with psyche comes from taking pride in what one is.. Blacks achieved a degree of empowerment through taking pride in black culture, religion, literature even black capitalism and cultivation of popular black idols and public figures.<BR/><BR/>Hence just reservations will never help in empowering or overcoming prejudice. The Dalits should also for change look inward, their leaders should first learn lessons in empowering themselves instead of running with a begging bowl to central government for more reservations..Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8212356.post-1119313863145857152005-06-20T17:31:00.000-07:002005-06-20T17:31:00.000-07:00Niket....in some ways you are right.....the effect...Niket....in some ways you are right.....the effects of reservation have been skewed. There is some fixing to be done...<BR/><BR/>The reservations have in reality most benifited the "middle" lower castes......and not the most downtrodden. However, at almost all levels, there has been a visible improvement of the lowest castes. Many castes were 0% literate. At independence, literacy levels in India were about 22%. That is the approximate percentage of "high" castes in India....Kshatriyas, Brahmins and Vaishyas. Today, slowly, lower castes are becoming visible in white collar areas.<BR/><BR/>However, I completely agree that it isn't working out smoothly.....and (especially due to politicization of specific caste "vote banks") there is a further re-enforcing of caste. However, that is not really due to the reservation policy.Sunilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07776658071546232685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8212356.post-1119311679359653662005-06-20T16:54:00.000-07:002005-06-20T16:54:00.000-07:00My mistake. But its as wrong as saying that the in...My mistake. But its as wrong as saying that the intelligence genes of oppressed gaste (as a general group) need to evolve. That isn't belief in evolution, but a misunderstanding of it.<BR/><BR/>More to the point, I don't expect the problems to disappear suddenly. But shouldn't there be a visible upward shift in the lives of the backward castes that can be primarily attributed to reservations? Is there any study being done on how reservations are affecting the people? IF a fix to a problem (playing field not level) creates a greater problem (exploitation by subcaste-A people who do not need it), then I think the system is already broken, and it needs to be fixed ASAP.<BR/><BR/>- niketAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8212356.post-1119310532456883282005-06-20T16:35:00.000-07:002005-06-20T16:35:00.000-07:00Niket....just remember that america abolished slav...Niket....just remember that america abolished slavery in 1864, the civil rights movement was in the 1960's, and only now is there some semblance of equality.<BR/><BR/>And it is ABSOLUTELY WRONG to confuse gene evolution with Eugenics. They are NOT related. Eugenics pertains to selecting races with innate abilities. This in itself is against gene evolution, because ABILITIES are ACQUIRED by individuals, and ARE NOT passed on over generations. Genetic traits are.<BR/><A HREF="http://balancinglife.blogspot.com/2005/05/of-peas-and-mice-and-men.html" REL="nofollow"> Readthis earlier post of mine</A> that explains genetic evolution.Sunilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07776658071546232685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8212356.post-1119308975652950192005-06-20T16:09:00.000-07:002005-06-20T16:09:00.000-07:00Sunil,I think reservations is like treating the sy...Sunil,<BR/>I think reservations is like treating the symptom instead of the disease. This in itself is a good thing for a short term. But this is not a long term solution. Especially when the side effects of treating the symptom start outweighing the benefits of doing so.<BR/><BR/>I have a personal story of where reservations have helped. Based on that, <A HREF="http://kaisare.net/wlog/?p=186#anec" REL="nofollow">these are the questions I raise</A>. The fact that we still need reservations means there is something not quite right with what we are doing. With 50% reservations, shouldn't we see many more socially backward people come out of their desperate situation?<BR/><BR/>Aside (since this has been raised):<BR/>The gene/evolution claim has been refuted many times. There is nothing innate in "upper caste" folks as a group that would make them "special" [<A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics" REL="nofollow">Eugenics</A> is considered as <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience" REL="nofollow">pseudo-science</A>].Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8212356.post-1119050495519425222005-06-17T16:21:00.000-07:002005-06-17T16:21:00.000-07:00Nachiketa....as far as the caste of a kid goes (fr...Nachiketa....as far as the caste of a kid goes (from an intercaste marriage), the kid has the same caste as the father. That is according to Indian law, which follows caste laws.<BR/><BR/>As far as "affirmative action" goes.....I just liked the title better, thats all. I used reservations in the rest of the post. And as far as my blog goes....I just write. It's not for a Western or an Indian audience.....but just for any interested reader. That's allSunilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07776658071546232685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8212356.post-1119047946590915522005-06-17T15:39:00.000-07:002005-06-17T15:39:00.000-07:00What is the use even if the Mandal report addresse...What is the use even if the Mandal report addressed a better noble criteria ? What happened in reality ? <BR/><BR/>I agree that the whole caste system is such an absurd thing; the marriege system in India is reinforcing the whole. Does anybody know what happens to the legal caste of the kids born into inter-caste marriege ?<BR/><BR/>We need to analyse the caste from two angles: 1) caste as it happens in culture & marrieges and why it survives 2) caste as being abetted by the government through reservations.<BR/><BR/>BTW, why do we call it "affirmative action" instead of reservations ? The word "affirmative action" is so disconnected from Indian identity. (It is like some bloggers using the term "federal government" instead of "central government") Are we writing for the western audience ?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8212356.post-1118914619703498042005-06-16T02:36:00.000-07:002005-06-16T02:36:00.000-07:00I have a copy of the Mandal report, and am willing...I have a copy of the Mandal report, and am willing to xerox the relevant page(s) (with the criteria for selection) and send it to anyone who asks me nicely.Dilip D'Souzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08221707482541503243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8212356.post-1118879257601197802005-06-15T16:47:00.000-07:002005-06-15T16:47:00.000-07:00Thought-provoking. Reservations have benefited the...Thought-provoking. <BR/><BR/>Reservations <I>have</I> benefited the downtrodden. What we need to consider is probably how much reservation is appropriate. In Tamilnadu educational institutions, for instance, 69% of the seats are reserved, leaving only 31% for open competition. Is this equitable?Srikanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12537754576532835576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8212356.post-1118846852294275092005-06-15T07:47:00.000-07:002005-06-15T07:47:00.000-07:00yes Charu...absolutely......I think I misunderstoo...yes Charu...absolutely......I think I misunderstood your statement to be a question. An insider is tremendously powerful in bringing about change. Only, sometimes, it's very hard to find one. But an insider is a 100 times more powerful than an outsider.<BR/><BR/>Varnam.....the report (or books referring to it extensively) can be found in the JNU libraries for sure (a friend of mine had accessed it there), amongst other places. I looked at it years ago, but that was because this professior of social work in Mysore had a copy.Sunilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07776658071546232685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8212356.post-1118819503680733582005-06-15T00:11:00.000-07:002005-06-15T00:11:00.000-07:00yes Sunil,except it is not about C being an outsid...yes Sunil,except it is not about C being an outsider - mobilisation happens best - or happens at all - when the person is from within the community... I have seen this for myself in the case of rural education...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8212356.post-1118818345217940312005-06-14T23:52:00.000-07:002005-06-14T23:52:00.000-07:00Sunil, Do you know any source(Online or Book) wher...Sunil, Do you know any source(Online or Book) where I can read actual recommendations made by MANDAL Commission. Tried googling it but could only get parts of it and rest of it was views of authors<BR/>ThanksAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8212356.post-1118816124826819262005-06-14T23:15:00.000-07:002005-06-14T23:15:00.000-07:00Yes Charu....absolutely....if there is a C helping...Yes Charu....absolutely....<BR/><BR/>if there is a C helping B, it makes a huge difference. However, like you will know.....dynamics in such societies are very difficult (especially for the outsider C, who is looked upon with suspicion). So, the change is slow. Especially because there are too many vested interests (held by the more dominant communities of the region) to prevent the upliftment of B. The risks C faces are often huge, and surving it is very very very hard.Sunilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07776658071546232685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8212356.post-1118815932648848852005-06-14T23:12:00.001-07:002005-06-14T23:12:00.001-07:00Varnam....50 years may not be enough for India. Re...Varnam....50 years may not be enough for India. Remember, America abolished slavery in 1864, the civil rights movement was a 100 years later!<BR/><BR/>Mandal did get most things right. However, there has been rampant misuse and violations in its implementation.<BR/><BR/>I won't comment on your friend's "intelligent gene" theory.<BR/><BR/>Provisions are widely misused...especially by people claiming to belong to backward classes (to make use of reservations), or declaring false family incomes (how easy is that in India). More often than not...the most oppressed community is unable to make use of the reservations that they deserve.They do not have a voice, and do not know where to air it if they do.Sunilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07776658071546232685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8212356.post-1118815925688021052005-06-14T23:12:00.000-07:002005-06-14T23:12:00.000-07:00sunil, I have a thought / question - would it make...sunil, I have a thought / question - would it make a difference to a community if they had someone educated / city-returned - or generally more aware - would take C for instance be any different - with someone to mobilise the commiunity - ?(another C here, along with class and caste)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8212356.post-1118815573376926442005-06-14T23:06:00.000-07:002005-06-14T23:06:00.000-07:00Nice Post Sunil. I saw some of the recommendation...Nice Post Sunil. I saw some of the recommendations from MANDAL here <BR/>http://www.pucl.org/from-archives/Dalit-tribal/mandal-2.htm.<BR/>(Don't know if they are correct)<BR/><BR/>What I got from the criteria mentioned is , a status of a family is measured by which class/caste he belongs to rather than individual position of the family. <BR/><BR/>I think these reservations should run their course for 50 years or so, which by then should bring some sort of social equality, and then the criteria for reservation should be revised.( I have a friend(believer in Darwin theory) who argued that reservations should be in place till intelligent genes evolve in Oppressed caste people)<BR/><BR/>But which politician in his right mind is going to revise this Sacred Bill of Reservation even after genes are evolved.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8212356.post-1118767380442232002005-06-14T09:43:00.000-07:002005-06-14T09:43:00.000-07:00Dilip.....part of my post wanted to point out just...Dilip.....part of my post wanted to point out just that. Mandal (in principle) got it right, and the effort was extensive and very rigorous. But the implementation somehow got highjacked by "middle-low castes/classes", who benifited by improving their social standing (which was required) but ended up stamping upon the lowest. There are no clear answers to this. But, I believe, with a constantly (though slowly) decreasing number of most-deprived classes, it will be a matter of time before there is some semblance of social equality. But the system needs to last without the increasing amount of politicization going on.Sunilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07776658071546232685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8212356.post-1118765818436923902005-06-14T09:16:00.000-07:002005-06-14T09:16:00.000-07:00Michael, actually the much-reviled Mandal Commissi...Michael, actually the much-reviled Mandal Commission tried to do exactly what you are suggesting and more: base reservations on a whole lot of factors, of which actual caste was a (relatively) minor one. One such factor, to give you an example, was the distance the community (under consideration for OBC status) had to travel to get drinking water. <BR/><BR/>In theory, using this criteria, even a backward community of Brahmins could qualify as OBCs. (I think there were some such examples, but I'm not sure).<BR/><BR/>And the use of these factors is the reason the "C" in Mandal's "OBC" is "Class", not "Caste". A very important distinction, all but lost in the din created by the folks who throw the empty accusation of "casteism" at Mandal.Dilip D'Souzahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08221707482541503243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8212356.post-1118759280271489832005-06-14T07:28:00.000-07:002005-06-14T07:28:00.000-07:00SD....yes....there have been positives from the mu...SD....yes....there have been positives from the much reviled reservation system....and I wanted to highlight that. But there has also been gross misuse of a system that is supposed to benifit.<BR/><BR/>Michael....you are absolutely right. Politics...especially in a caste charged atmosphere in India...plays a huge role in it. There is no way to restructure present day reservations, or to ensure that the most deprived and needy get the benifits of this.Sunilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07776658071546232685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8212356.post-1118756531292097712005-06-14T06:42:00.000-07:002005-06-14T06:42:00.000-07:00Hi SunilWhat an interesting post. I think your pos...Hi Sunil<BR/>What an interesting post. I think your post illustrates the problem of basing affirmative action on the basis of ethnicity instead of economic background. If affirmative action was based on where you lived (if you lived in a slum, then you get special consideration), instead of ethnicity, then people would feel so bad about it. No one wants to live in a slum.<BR/><BR/>But politics plays a huge role in all of this. Once you give special consideration to one group, you can't take it away. And it brings a lot of resentment.Michael Higginshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05034249281790021336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8212356.post-1118719394831729192005-06-13T20:23:00.000-07:002005-06-13T20:23:00.000-07:00Hi Sunil,Nice post. I liked the fact that you gave...Hi Sunil,<BR/><BR/>Nice post. I liked the fact that you gave examples of both positive and negative outcomes. I am probably very pessimistic - but I am not sure if "affirmative action, when implemented without any form of bias" is possible.sdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05743648260460069353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8212356.post-1118715787967343962005-06-13T19:23:00.000-07:002005-06-13T19:23:00.000-07:00Thanks Arnab.Suhail....."Was it all worth the effo...Thanks Arnab.<BR/><BR/>Suhail.....<I>"Was it all worth the effort" ?</I>.....that is really such a pertinent question. I was very depressed when I saw what was happening with A & B. I was extremely happy for A, who had gotten out of the quagmire.....but B.<BR/><BR/>And you can see A & B in every single corner of India.<BR/><BR/>Yet.....I still believe that affirmative action, when implemented without any form of bias, can be extremely effective. But sometimes.....one wishes one were Norwegian :-)Sunilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07776658071546232685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8212356.post-1118714636545922262005-06-13T19:03:00.000-07:002005-06-13T19:03:00.000-07:00It is at these times, when A~ overpowers B~ we ten...It is at these times, when A~ overpowers B~ we tend to ask "Was it all worth the effort" ?Suhailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07003909838593766176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8212356.post-1118712847017081072005-06-13T18:34:00.000-07:002005-06-13T18:34:00.000-07:00Excellent post.Excellent post.greatbonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05095742894399841700noreply@blogger.com